Building Code and Building Construction - Questions and Answers
Or when you want to know how construction is supposed to be done.

|
AskCodeMan.com
|
The following Codemen are available to answer your questions:
All Codes and Standards - Jerry Peck, Codeman


Q&A Board links
  • REGISTER

  • FAQ

  • LOGIN

  • Q&A BOARD INDEX

  • View New Questions

  • View Unanswered Questions

  • View Active Questions/Answers

  • Mark Questions as read

  • View Your Questions

  • Go To Your User Control Panel




  • Links to:
  • Construction Litigation Consultants


  • Florida Building Commission

  • Florida Building Codes Online


  • International Code Council

  • ICC Codes Free Online


  • Building Officials and Administrators of Florida




  • Product Approvals
  • Florida Product Approval

  • ICC Evaluation Reports Search

  • Miami-Dade NOA Search




  • Inspector and Contractor License Search
  • Search Florida Licenses




  • Technical links
  • Technical Information page


























































  • Contact Codeman



  • Custom Search

    pool fence

    pool fence

    New postby jerry1 on Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:06 am

    Citrus county fl, can i use chicken wire for the barrier fence it meets height and hole spacing. I plan on wrapping the entire pool deck from one corner of house to the other zero gates only entry is from house. i am aware of alarm requirments on sliders windows and doors.

    thanks in advance

    Jerry
    jerry1
     
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:13 am

    Re: pool fence

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:08 pm

    The only way you would be able to use chicken wire for the safety barrier would be to verify that it meets all the requirements for a mesh safety barrier, and I doubt that chicken wire would meet those requiremetns.

    From the 2007 Florida Building Code, Residential: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R4101.17.1.15 A mesh safety barrier meeting the requirements of Section R4101.17 and the following minimum requirements shall be considered a barrier as defined in this section:
    - - 1. Individual component vertical support posts shall be capable of resisting a minimum of 52 pounds (229 N) of horizontal force prior to breakage when measured at a 36-inch (914 mm) height above grade. Vertical posts of the child mesh safety barrier shall extend a minimum of 3 inches (76 mm) below deck level and shall be spaced no greater than 36 inches (914 mm) apart.
    - - 2. The mesh utilized in the barrier shall have a minimum tensile strength according to ASTM D 5034 of 100 lbf., and a minimum ball burst strength according to ASTM D 3787 of 150 lbf. The mesh shall not be capable of deformation such that a 1/4-inch (6.4 mm) round object could pass through the mesh.
    - - - The mesh shall receive a descriptive performance rating of no less than "trace discoloration" or "slight discoloration" when tested according to ASTM G 53 (Weatherability, 1,200 hours).
    - - 3. When using a molding strip to attach the mesh to the vertical posts, this strip shall contain, at a minimum, #8 by 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) screws with a minimum of two screws at the top and two at the bottom with the remaining screws spaced a maximum of 6 inches (152 mm) apart on center.
    - - 4. Patio deck sleeves (vertical post receptacles) placed inside the patio surface shall be of a nonconductive material.
    - - 5. A latching device shall attach each barrier section at a height no lower than 45 inches (11 613 mm) above grade. Common latching devices that include, but are not limited to, devices that provide the security equal to or greater than that of a hook and eye type latch incorporating a spring actuated retaining lever (commonly referred to as a safety gate hook).
    - - 6. The bottom of the child mesh safety barrier shall not be more than 1 inch (25 mm) above the deck or installed surface (grade).

    Note that not only must the mesh meet the above requirements, but that it also must meet the full requirements of Section R4101.17, which is the R4101.17 Residential swimming barrier requirement section.
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
    AskCodeMan.com

    Construction and Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC.
    ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com
    User avatar
    Jerry Peck - Codeman
    Site Admin
     
    Posts: 1103
    Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:06 pm

    Re: pool fence

    New postby jerry1 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:34 am

    Thanks so much for the responce. The info that the pool builder gives in reference to a barrier is much more basic 4ft high, a small child cannot climb it etc. but no reference to strength etc. It is discouraging because a screen enclosure that you could easily put your fist thru and tear the screen with verticle support spacing much greater than 3ft would passs the inspection. And something stronger albeit not as pretty wont pass argh beuracracy! Could you give me some insight as to the cheapest route to pass the barrier fence inspection? I have 2 32ft sides and 56 ft across the rear. The 2 32 ft sides connect to my house, my plan is to start at one corner of my hoiuse and completely wrap the pool deck and connect to the other sidfe of the house. Zero gates the only entry is from the house/lanai. I do not care about cosmetics at all it only has to get me a pass . Thank you again for this forum and your valuble responces. As i told you i live in citrus county fl

    Jerry
    jerry1
     
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:13 am

    Re: pool fence

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:40 am

    Hi Jerry,

    jerry1 wrote:I do not care about cosmetics at all it only has to get me a pass .


    I cannot tell you how to do it just to get you a pass and then take it down ... once you take it down you will be in violation of the Property Maintenance Code that Citrus County likely has adopted ... and (more importantly) when something happens your insurance company will back away and leave you hanging to cover all the liability associated with the pool and the lack of a barrier.

    I know that there are many people out there who, for some reason, still do not understand or realize why the pool safety barriers are required, even after all the permanent and serious injuries to children, not to even mention the deaths to children for lack of proper safety barriers. I do not know if you are one, or is you simply 'do not want' a safety barrier, but anyone who simply 'does not want' a safety barrier cannot be understanding the risks they are taking by installing a barrier "to get me a pass" and then remove it afterward.

    The cheapest way if to install a chain-link fence around the pool area.
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
    AskCodeMan.com

    Construction and Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC.
    ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com
    User avatar
    Jerry Peck - Codeman
    Site Admin
     
    Posts: 1103
    Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:06 pm

    Re: pool fence

    New postby jerry1 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:23 am

    Thanks again, I am sorry if i implied that i was going to just take it down. My intention was as cheap as possible until the first of the year when i get my tax return , i plan on a nice aluminum rail and cannot afford to spend alot now as then it will be taken down and thrown away. Will standard chainlink work? I am very much a conservative and beleive in accountability i have no children and have no neighbors who have children within at least 150 yards. It is a shame that we gotten to this point that i have to go to extra expence to protect your child from my pool when the responsibility should fall squarely on you. Not you literaly but you see what i mean. Thanks again for your expertise

    Jerry
    jerry1
     
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:13 am

    Re: pool fence

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:00 pm

    Hi Jerry,

    Glad to hear that your intent is to leave it up until you can replace it with a better looking safety barrier.

    jerry1 wrote:Will standard chainlink work?


    Yes, a regular chain link fence should (leaving it open to you to find one which is not so dirt cheap that it is not strong enough - I am sure there are some available out there which are not strong enough, but I an keying in on "regular" chain link fencing) ... regular chain link fencing should meet the requirements, I would just verify the mesh opening size before you by it.

    It is a shame that we gotten to this point that i have to go to extra expence to protect your child from my pool when the responsibility should fall squarely on you. Not you literaly but you see what i mean.


    I agree with you on that, however, as a parent (I do not know if you are, but I am) one knows that their children will do many things the children are not supposed to, and as a previous child - which we all are - we should remember all the things we did and tried to do which we were told not to do ... and recall that our parents could not oversee and supervise us 24/7 - remembering those things alone should scare the crap out of anyone as the children of today are starting out way beyond where most of us even ventured against our parents wishes, an that the children of today are pushing those already expanded limits even further ... just like we did back in our time.

    When you were young - how many pools were there for you to drown in compared to today? Me, there were none that I can remember, but we did go to the rock mining pits and swim there, and, yes, most of us survived - but the code is there because "the rest of us that did not survive" brought out the need to protect ourselves from ourselves.

    I could carry your argument and position to: "which have child safety seats"; "why have seat belts"; "why have electrical safety"; after all, "we" survived when those were not even available, not only that but our parents survived without even the things put into place to protect us back then - heck, our ancestors survived coming over on the Mayflower, so why do we need any rules to protect us? It's called "progress".
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
    AskCodeMan.com

    Construction and Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC.
    ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com
    User avatar
    Jerry Peck - Codeman
    Site Admin
     
    Posts: 1103
    Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:06 pm

    Re: pool fence

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:01 am

    Hi Jerry,

    I also should add this about your intention of not installing a gate in that pool fence:
    - Are there any bedrooms which open only to that area?
    - Are there any other room which open only to that area?

    First, the bedrooms - all sleeping rooms (bedrooms) are required to have an emergency escape and rescue opening (EERO) separate from the primary entrance door to the bedroom, this EERO may be another door or it may be a window. A person exiting through that EERO needs to be able to escape away from the house, and that fence without a gate in it would be considered as blocking the escape route. The same applies to a rescue route from the outdoor to that EERO for rescue persons.

    Additionally, there should be two exits for the dwelling and each habitable space within the dwelling (although not clearly and definitively spelled out as with sleeping rooms), and that fence with no gate would block that exit route if the main exit is at the front and the secondary exit is at the rear where the pool and that fence is.

    Another thing to consider is that if you were in the pool area and there was an emergency, say a fire, and could not exit back through the house - your exit through the fence is blocked by not having a gate.

    Just something else to consider with regard to not having a gate in that fence. I suspect the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) will require a gate in that pool fence.
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
    AskCodeMan.com

    Construction and Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC.
    ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com
    User avatar
    Jerry Peck - Codeman
    Site Admin
     
    Posts: 1103
    Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:06 pm

    Re: pool fence

    New postby jerry1 on Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:48 pm

    Thank god the local authorities are not as critical as yourself. I have explained my plan to inspectors and we are hashing out what material will work. They have not mentioned that the zero gates would be a problem. I guess it is subjective as if i had a fire in my bedroom i could exit out the bedroom door and then out the house or if as you say i needed another exit i could exit out the slider (the emergency exit into my lanai/pool deck area). It will be fenced in yes but will still allow you to escape the area unimpeded as i dont imagine the code states how far you have to be able to get away just that you be able to the leave the structure with the danger. I have talked to a homeowner that got his pass with the plastic osha barrier fence with zero gates. Thats the inspector i want. LOL

    I guess if i had a inpector as hypercritical as yourself the list could go on and on, i know you call it progress i call it liberal beuracracy.
    I dont need to be protected from myself. I know several new homes that homeowners have built with a bedroom with zero windows and ownly a bedroom door, how did the plans get approved and the house built without the emergency exit. I imagine that s a grey area at least with a residential structure. Again i do appreciate your oppinions but i am finding that the final inspection depends as much on the individual inpector as it does on the codes. My example is the emergency exit you bring up was never mentioned by a inspector

    Jerry
    jerry1
     
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:13 am

    Re: pool fence

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:48 pm

    jerry1 wrote:Thank god the local authorities are not as critical as yourself.


    Well, you did ask for code advise and what the code requires - which is what I am giving, you did not ask Dear Abby for advise.

    I guess it is subjective as if i had a fire in my bedroom i could exit out the bedroom door and then out the house or if as you say i needed another exit i could exit out the slider (the emergency exit into my lanai/pool deck area). It will be fenced in yes but will still allow you to escape the area unimpeded ...


    You call escaping into a trapped in, fenced in area next to a raging fire as "but will still allow you to escape the area unimpeded"? No wonder I am not getting through to you.

    I have talked to a homeowner that got his pass with the plastic OSHA barrier fence with zero gates. Thats the inspector i want.


    Not really much I can say, other than 'Please send my condolences to the surviving family members when something happens'.

    i know you call it progress i call it liberal beuracracy.


    You have shown your political preference, and probably even feel that there should be no government intrusion into one's life ... except for that government intrusion you happen to agree with ... however, this is not a forum for political discussion, so I will let it die there

    I dont need to be protected from myself.


    Sounds like you do need to be protected from your self, for your families sake, but that is not a discussion for this forum either.

    Again i do appreciate your oppinions but i am finding that the final inspection depends as much on the individual inpector as it does on the codes.


    While the codes are intended to be enforced equally all over, yes, there are some inspectors which do not understand the full reasons and intent behind the codes and other inspectors who may understand but do not care.

    My example is the emergency exit you bring up was never mentioned by a inspector


    Your inspector may just not have thought about that aspect. Here is a question for you as you are so sure about what you want - ask your local inspector about that scenario and let me know what they say after thinking about that example.

    Looking forward to your replay with your inspectors answer.
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
    AskCodeMan.com

    Construction and Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC.
    ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com
    User avatar
    Jerry Peck - Codeman
    Site Admin
     
    Posts: 1103
    Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:06 pm

    Re: pool fence

    New postby jerry1 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:22 am

    Not really much I can say, other than 'Please send my condolences to the surviving family members when something happens'.
    I have told from the start that i have no children and no neighbors with children. Not having a fence is a moot point as it is meant to protect children and does little else. I realize your livelihood depends on these codes and there interpretation so you have a vested interest in building codes.

    [quote][Your inspector may just not have thought about that aspect. Here is a question for you as you are so sure about what you want - ask your local inspector about that scenario and let me know what they say after thinking about that example.

    /quote]
    Why would i attempt to persuade the inpector to not pass me based on someonelses hypothetical scenario? Your EERO example would be considered for construction of the dwelling and as i discovered even then is vague. To attempt to apply that code to a barrier fence for a pool when the dwelling has already been constructed is a stretch.

    Jerry
    jerry1
     
    Posts: 5
    Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:13 am


    Return to Pools and Spas: Swimming pools, spas, hot tubs, child safety protection, entrapment protection



    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



    www.AskCodeMan.com
    cron