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    Enclosed screen patio's

    Enclosed screen patio's

    New postby bigdog on Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:28 am

    A house has an aluminum patio structure with aluminum insulated roof panels installed. The enclosure has both screens and the plastic windows.
    From the electrical perspective is this are still a damp / wet location?

    David McCabe
    bigdog
     
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    Re: Enclosed screen patio's

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:17 pm

    bigdog wrote:The enclosure has both screens and the plastic windows.


    David,

    The typical "It depends" answer applies.

    Does "The enclosure has both screens and the plastic windows" mean that there are some openings which are screened, and some openings which are the plastic windows?

    Or does that mean that each opening has screens and plastic windows?

    Additionally, and this may make the above two questions moot, are those windows some of those rated such that they are only approved for installation with the acknowledgment and notification and agreement by the owner that the windows are to be remove removed when the wind speeds are forecast to exceeded the rating of the windows?

    I recall the ratings being somewhere around the higher end of tropical storm force winds (39 mph to 73 mph), and any forecast winds speeds in excess of that (let's go with 74 mph and above) require removal of those windows. You can look up the wind speed map in the FBC-Residential Figure R301.2(4), and see where these requirements are most prevalent (where the wind speeds are >115 mph ... anywhere south of the Georgia/Florida state line).

    We know that the owners are not going to go out there and remove those low rated plastic windows, and that doesn't really matter if they don't remove those windows ... the storm will ... and being as we know that those low rated windows will be gone at various times of the year, then, yes, that room is still mostly likely a wet location (some parts of the location (such as up close to the ceiling) may only be damp locations.

    If ... the BIG IF ... those windows are actually properly rated, there is no requirement to remove the windows, and as such, the above would not apply, putting the question back to the first two questions.

    I had an excellent way in addressing the difference between damp and wet locations electrical contractors when in the field as the occasion would readily arise in Florida (it rains in Florida) - during some of the frequent wind driven rains I would ask the electrical contractor to go out into the front or reach porch with me so I could ask them about something I saw out there, when they replied "No way, not in that rain! We'll get all wet out there!", I would simply ask "I thought you said that was just going to get damp, not wet? So I guess that must be a "wet" location and not a "damp" location, right?" The electrical contractors had no defense to fall back onto as they had just called it a "wet" location.

    When it wasn't raining, I would innocently ask about 'Man, that rain storm the other day, you ever see wind blowing rain that close to horizontally before?" When they replied "Yep, happens all the time here." ... their description of 'we use a 45 degree angle back from the edge to decide if it is a "wet" location of if it is a "damp" location' is now moot as they have just acknowledged that nearly horizontal rain is common, and that nearly horizontal rain is the dividing line between wet and damp locations. Sure, the NEC does offer some help on it, be it is mostly a subjective call, and I would do what I could to get the electrical contractors to define that line with their own descriptions.
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
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    Re: Enclosed screen patio's

    New postby bigdog on Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:04 pm

    Thanks Jerry,

    The enclosure has plastic windows for all of the openings but no way could they be rated for much. Based upon that theory I shall proclaim this area and all others in the land damp locations requiring the proper covers for receptacles living therein.
    bigdog
     
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    Re: Enclosed screen patio's

    New postby Jerry Peck - Codeman on Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:48 pm

    bigdog wrote:The enclosure has plastic windows for all of the openings but no way could they be rated for much. Based upon that theory I shall proclaim this area and all others in the land damp locations ...


    David,

    You mean "wet locations", right?

    Lights in (recessed) and on (not suspended from the ceiling) the ceilings would be "damp locations", pushing it but possibly acceptable in many cases would be ceiling fans, especially ceiling fans which are mounted close to the ceiling, not hung down on stems, and especially not long stems from high ceilings.

    Do you find high porch ceiling (front or rear) with light fixtures hung down on chains? Some hanging far enough down that the lights are tied off to columns and walls to keep the lights from swinging in the wind? those would be "wet locations".

    And keep your mind open to switches located outside too, it isn't just for receptacles. South Florida (especially in Palm Beach County and some of the more expensive developments, they like to provide exterior switches for things without considering what a switch cover in a wet location means ('pretty' is not something one would call those things).
    Jerry Peck - CodeMan
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